WWC ep 001 Jesse Tyler & Bret Keisling

October 01, 2021 00:36:20
WWC ep 001 Jesse Tyler & Bret Keisling
The Why Worker Co-ops Podcast
WWC ep 001 Jesse Tyler & Bret Keisling

Oct 01 2021 | 00:36:20


Show Notes

In this introductory episode, host Rodney North is joined by Jesse Tyler, host of The Owner to Owner Podcast, and Bret Keisling, host of The EO/ESOP Podcast and ESOP Mini-cast. Rodney  Jesse discuss their new podcasts, and all three talk about the new EO Podcast Network and how dialog across EO helps all EO.

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Episode Transcript

welcome to the Y worker co-ops podcast. My name is Rodney north. I've been part of the worker-owned cooperative community for 25 years. And in every episode, I bring on a new guest to talk about one Y one way that the worker co-op model makes a difference for employees, for their businesses, their communities and society at large, or we will discuss one specific way that people organizations, governments can support worker cooperatives. And for those new to work, our co-ops, they are businesses owned and governed by the employees on a one person, one share one vote basis. They can be either profit or nonprofit, or some of the topics will be familiar to most worker cooperators. I bet on some episodes we'll share insights. That'll be new even for those but decades in the co-op world. That has been my experience. And this podcast is only a few weeks old. However, today it was going to be a little bit different and special for that reason. So I'm excited to have on my new friends and peers in EO podcast network, Brett Kiessling and Jesse Tyler has it says on his business card, but Kiesling is a passionate advocate for employee ownership. And he's because of that passion. He is the founder of the EO podcast network and host of the ESOP podcast. He's also the producer of this podcast and for the owner donor podcast, which gets us to our second guest. Jesse Tyler, Jesse is associate experience specialist for Hypertherm a sophisticated manufacturing business and an a hundred percent employee owned ESOP with over 1900 employees worldwide. Amazingly they've never laid anyone off, but more importantly, as I alluded, Jesse is the host of another new podcast, the owner to owner podcast. And thank you very much for coming on today, Jesse. Thank you, Rodney. It's a lot of fun to on the. Worker, why worker co-ops and to support your podcast and the work you're doing for the broader reach into the ownership community. I'm excited, even though I'm from the land of ESOP's and I've worked as an employee owner now for 14 and a half years, just in working to develop these podcasts, I've really become fascinated by the extension of ownership into the co-op world. So it's wonderful to have already learned some things from you, and I'm looking forward to your guests and the education that you'll do and the insights you're going to bring to the co-op world. Thank you ever separately, I'm really looking forward to your show. It's the only one that I know of where regular employee owners from across different parts of business and across different businesses have a chance to share their experiences. Do you know of any precedent for something like. I'm not familiar with another podcast that does this. This is an extension of my work. So I work for Hypertherm, that's part of my ownership work. And so my role is a associate experience. I do work on ownership, culture, onboard new associates, and support our ownership team, do a lot with milestones recognition around problem Buster forums, to hear the voices not usually heard. It's amazing. If you ask somebody who doesn't usually get asked to solve a problem, it's amazing what can be solved and that seeing this play out over years of doing this with hundreds of global associates is really what inspired me to shape the owner to owner podcast for Brett, the way that I have, because I'm fascinated to hear the voices you don't usually hear. And when it comes to employee ownership, it's a big, complicated structure, it's a retirement program, but then you start going through the levels and you look at communities that are transformed because a company that would have sold and maybe it got broken up, stays there. Those jobs stay there, that security stays there. The families are stronger and healthier that feeds into the school systems and the businesses. But at the end of that chain, are they individual owners? And how does this. Culture and we'll offer building experience impact of them. How do they talk about it with their friends and family? How has it impacted their lives? And I find that endlessly fascinating, and I appreciate the opportunity with the old podcast network to have owner, to owner, to start to explore those voices. Now, you've now produced a few of these shows. I have not heard any of them yet. Are you having the kinds of conversations that you thought you might and regardless are have there been some surprises? That's a great question. So as part of what I do for ownership for Hypertherm, I start, if you're a new employee on your first morning, I literally welcome you in the lobby, whether that's on Microsoft teams for remote, like half next week and the rest of them in the room, like we'll have next week, we start with the topic of ownership. Working at a hundred percent, Aesop is going to be a different experience. We're sure of that. And we want to give you some time, some tools and the right pacing to really blossom within that. And we don't expect you to understand it and your first day and your week. Another program I run is a onboarding intensive, like a lot of companies do. I think we're somewhat unusual as a manufacturer that we run about 20 hours of live. Again, you're using for remote or in person new employees. We do this intensive and it's framed around two questions. What does ownership mean to you? How does your role in work impact our customers? So really that's what the whole intensive is based around. I must've asked 800 people by now between ownership events, being a conferences. Away from work and global associates hype. But then when I've asked, so, coming back to your original question, I'm trying to lay out the context that I knew what I was getting myself into because that having asked all of these hundreds and hundreds of people, I've never gotten the same answer. There are definitely some themes, pride care community security. And again, when you said you're asking that question, these are new hires, these are new hires. And then we also did a global project a few years ago where we asked across all career stages globally. So we had every shift, we have several buildings that run three shifts a day to try to keep up. And we're in Singapore, Brazil, India, Europe we had everybody participate from each location. We also got the insight across career stages and it was amazing. They're the same rich quality. And even somebody that's the only been at the company for a few weeks can write a statement that sounds in a similar spirit and tone and intensity and joy as somebody who's been working with us for 30 years. And it says so much about Hypertherm and probably the job you and your immediate peers are doing perpetuating the ownership culture. Well, I appreciate that. I see the similar themes when I've worked with other Aesop's, you know, It's a very open and sharing community. You know, somebody in another Aesop, I asked for some fresh eyes on what would we do in a certain way? And Jess, it's sir, Tronick sent me kind of her playbook. I made a bunch of changes in my program. I just sent it to her and her team. There's a lot of openness and sharing to support each other. And when I have talked to other employee owners at other Aesop's, there's this beautiful, there's a fabric that's woven and it doesn't matter which company you're at. They're very similar kinds of statements. And then the owner to owner podcasts I've recorded so far. It is awesome to hear some of the aha moments, some of the insight one guests, Sarah had been at admix a great company and Manchester, New Hampshire, I think, six months. And she's already a pillar on the ownership team. She's not, I don't believe actually actively participating yet in the shares, but she is just fired up. And I talked to a couple of folks. 2028 years in and they have the same kind of enthusiasm and their statements have a similar theme. So I just find it endlessly fascinating. And so my hope with the podcast is ask the right open questions, put people at ease, and the listeners can just enjoy hearing voices from across the land of Aesop. Now, I know that something that you Brett and I all share is obviously we're very excited about employee ownership and its different forms. We want there to be more of it. We want people to understand it better. So that aside, do you have some specific hopes for the show? So for example, you know, I, Jessie hope that the audience will get blank out of owner DOE or, yeah, that's a great question. Thank you. I I hope for two audiences first. I hope that owners get to hear from owners. They never would have gotten to hear from him before, because as far as we can tell there isn't a forum like this that's really owner voice-based, it's not a lot of podcasts can have more of a storytelling, which is awesome. There can be more of a, like a short interview and a lot of review and opinion. Those are also wonderful. There's some really good ones out there having run hundreds of panels and Done a lot of that kind of work from hypothermia. And before I, I just find it fascinating to just hear the voices and let people put them at ease and help them be at ease and speak for themselves. And so what I'm hoping is owners can hear themselves what some of those other voices, and also hear some ideas they can use at their companies to make them stronger. The other audience, which I talk about with my guests is it would be great if somebody is thinking even considering the future of their company and they heard you and heard that insight, what could that do to help make this what's this ownership thing? And if they can hear a voice that reminds them of somebody that works at their company and think, huh, that sounds pretty good. Maybe I got to take a closer look and if they can quietly add to that, I think it would be incredible. So in that instance, I think you're referring to the owner of a conventional business or a more traditional business who might be thinking about retiring or selling and what they might get. If they hear rank and file employee owners share their ownership expense. Yeah, correct. That's a better way of saying it. I might borrow that the next time I describe it. So thank you. Yeah, that's really what I'm going for as somebody is thinking of spending some time doing other things. They want to have the equity from their business. They care very much about their employees and what they've built. And there's a likelihood in this economy that they are getting offers that could be very valuable and lead to wealth for their family. But as employee ownership gets more traction I am hopeful that, you know, shows like yours and ours helps people think a little differently. Like, well, maybe that reminds me of somebody that works for me. Maybe they could have that future if I went to ownership instead of selling out to an investment firm or otherwise. So it's talking to owners, but it's also hopefully gonna feed the interest and the confidence that some of these traditional business owners can see. They can hopefully have their wealth of their family, but also see the company thrive. It's amazing. It's amazing to hear the voices. Well, if I may, as a outsider, I've not been a part of a ESOP. My participation in the EO podcast network has been a great education. It's also been motivating me to learn more from shows like yours and Brett's the EO podcast and EO mini casts. I'm also imagining. As I began to learn that there's a lot of diversity in the ESOP world, small businesses, very big companies like Publix supermarkets, for example, that I think a hundred thousand plus employees. So different industries some are the employees own part of the company, others like Hypertherm the employees own a hundred percent, some are more participatory or they use open-book management, others. Don't what do you think might happen within the e-stop community when your show takes off and everybody's listening to it? Well, I'm hoping we can constantly have a variety of different sized companies. And so I talked to some of the smaller ones, some of the larger ones, I think hearing the differences, what's different about ownership at a large company or small company. Eventually I want to get into what's universal in all. You know, one of the things that I've heard so far, and I want to investigate more with a variety of guests is when I've gone to conferences and just on my own LinkedIn, just beyond, Hypotherm just my own passion for ownership. You know, one of the things that can, that I hear at so far as a universal challenge, despite the size is how do you have a good culture committee? What are the right things to do? And then you have, you know, I talked to Pacific steel and our friend Tyson, Andrew's going there, who've got to lead their ownership, Igniters group. They have 46 locations. Are they 800 people? How do you bring that across? Like, we work three shifts, we're in multiple countries, multiple regions. How do you give a consistent sense of that? And then yet let the ownership be experienced, be to the location or the region or the country. And so I think looking into that more maybe we all share the same exact problem let's investigate and hear from the big and the small and see what's different in the same. So if I'm answering your question, I think starting to evolve from there, but it starts with, it's really formed around. What does ownership mean to you as an individual? And what does that experience for you? How does that feel? Because as much as ESOP's are known for wealth building, that's the remarkable story. And that's wonderful and I'm benefiting from that myself. Absolutely love it. But going to work, doesn't have to suck. You know, if you feel like your voice matters, you feel like your ideas are going to be heard. How different is that in the daily experience? And so when you ask people and they start sharing, I guess I'm partly inspired by when I was a kid, I was fascinated by studs, Terkel, heel, sort of talking to the average worker. I love Mike Rowe's show. And the interviews that he's done, because he just talks to people you wouldn't really talk to. And then, you know, and I see with the problem forums I've done in hypothermia, and I've done that for other ESOPs. When you ask the voices, you don't usually hear beautiful things can happen. And so I'm hoping to really explore that nationally with the podcast. It is just a delightful joy to be adding this to my life beyond the work credit fry Python, which I also enjoy very much. Well, I think it's going to be quite the contribution to employ ownership and we got to hope, you know, more broadly to help change the way people think about work. Who's an owner who can be on owner and what work can be as opposed to just what work. So, yeah, it's great that you're doing this. That's great that our mutual friend Brett has made this possible. And so I'm going to use that opportunity to bring Brett back into the conversation. So as I believe I said before, Brett is the the impresario behind all of this EO podcast network is own two shows and for making possible owner to owner and making this show by worker co-ops possible. So, Brett thank you for coming on. Thank you so much. I'm thrilled beyond belief to hear this, and I'll tell you, I absolutely, as you said earlier, go by passionate advocate for employee ownership. I consider myself a serial entrepreneur, but for those who listen to my podcast, I am a cigar guy. And when you said impresario, I was flashing back to like the old times where step right up folks. We got some podcasts during the podcast coming. Listen. It is a great pleasure to be here. It's also a great pleasure to be here with Jesse. So thank you very much. Well, since we get to turn the tables a bit and so to speak and ask the questions of you. I want to know, I think we all want to know more about what led to. This idea of, okay, people start podcasts. They like it. Some of the markets, some of them don't, but you got an idea or a fire in your belly that you want her to do more than the two shows you were already doing as if that wasn't enough. What led you to the side to scale this up? That's a great question, Rodney. And I guess I need to explain a little bit about my wiring. I started the Aesop podcast. We now call it the EOE sot podcast and the ESOP mini cast in 2017. When I was a managing partner at capital trustees, which is a boutique Aesop trustee firm that I co-founded with my friend and then partner rich heater. That started the sub podcast because I was an ESOP trustee. Honestly, if I were managing a tire store in 2017, I suspect I would have hosted the tire store podcast. And to be honest with you, you know, there, but for a twist of fate, you guys would be part of the tire store podcast network. I happen to be one of those people that, you know, there is a certain level of we're heading where we're heading, and as I've developed the Greek passion for podcasting, it happened to be in the employee ownership space. So if I can just expand a little bit on that because Rodney I've never, I don't think been a guest on someone else's podcast before. So I always ask the questions. This is overdue. I've hosted both podcasts since 2017. Very proud. We've got approximately 340 episodes. The vast majority of them with guests. We've got approximately as we're getting ready to launch the network a little more than 85,000 total listens in the last four years, there are a couple of opportunities. First of all, everybody says, everybody agrees, more people should be talking about employee ownership. That's literally what I do. And I'm fortunate and both of you have been on my own podcast in the past. As you know, I pretty much talked to everybody and now I've become a generalist where I'm just moving the ball forward. Meanwhile, Rodney, you've been a great guest and they resource for guests in the co-op space. And I'm very proud of the last year. What I refer to as season four, where I've really focused a lot of attention on broader employee ownership on co-ops as well as the SOPs. And it's a sign of my moving to a general take, which is if we're building what I like to call the EO sandbox, we need to bring all the pieces together and collaborate. So meanwhile, I can't tell the stories that I want to tell. There's just too many of them. I've got two episodes coming up on my podcast, but have researchers and it's absolutely great. There could be a podcast series, a podcast title, as we say, just about research and employee ownership, by the way, if anybody would like to host an upcoming podcast on research, I would love to produce that and bring it into the network as well. I can recommend some folks, Rodney. I have no doubt and we should talk to them because here's the point. And here's what I've learned from each of you guys. And first of all, I appreciate the friendship that has been developing and we started working together or having initial conversations. I'm going to say late April with each of you, 2021. And with both of you, all right, Rodney, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna separate with Jesse. And I started talking about the podcast and we're on the same page at like the end of the first phone call and a half. And then we moved forward with Jesse's ideas, Rodney, as you'll recall, I put out a general, I would like podcast hosts, and I think you responded with seven or eight wonderful suggestions of potential co-op podcast hosts. And we talked about that for a while, when you suggested numerous wonderful topics for episodes of the co-op podcast. And honestly, in our fourth or fifth conversation with some exasperations, I was like, Rodney, I've been talking about you hosting and you keep talking everybody else. So it took a while. I had to woo you a little bit because you kept bringing other people to the bands. Yeah. I didn't want to be presenters. Well, I appreciate that, but here's what YouTube both bring to the table. You, first of all, in the co-op space, Rodney, it's possible stylistically. Our podcasts would be somewhat similar in terms of what we're doing, if I were in the co-op space, except for one, really big difference, and it does speak to the vibe, you have a lot of experience in establishing co-ops you go deep on the history of co-ops you are deep on the principles, et cetera, et cetera. Whereas that I just have a general knowledge, but as you know, with my seven years as a trustee, I set the valuations for 180 companies. So whereas I tend to, at some point go to EBITDA, you know, balance sheets, valuations, and that sort of thing you are coming from the more pure form. I think of it is a good format. So if you and I, at some point had the same guests on our identical podcasts, you would probably get more into the social justice, the community vibe, the ethical and moral. And I don't want to put words in your mouth, but all the reasons for the co-ops, whereas I'd probably divert a little more attention to the competitive nature of what they're doing and how are they addressing the business side of things. So that makes sense. It does. And I take heart and some enthusiasm from how probably all three of us could talk to some of the same people at the same business and have three different conversations you are right. And let me tie Jesse in and talk about Jesse for just a moment, if I can, Jesse here's what I love about what you're doing. And to clarify, you guys talked earlier in your segment there is no other podcasts specifically where owners are talking to owners in a mindful and directed way. There may well be podcasts that are hosted by owners who coincidentally talk to owners among all of their guests. Like when I was a trustee, I would coincidentally talk to trustees. But what you are doing is not just singular in the podcast world and employee ownership, but there isn't to my knowledge, any single directed effort of an owner talking to other owners and then the dialogue of owners talking together. So Jesse, just as I can't authentically speak in the co-op space as Rodney can, I was an employee owner for two and a half years. I started my career as CEO of an employee on company. And I would, I was in the plan for about two and a half years before I became a trustee, but that's a long time away. So when I talk to owners, it's the former trustee talking and that's a whole different vibe and conversation. So you have an authenticity that I can't bring. All right. I appreciate that. I, well, I love discussions. EBITDA and that going up and up, and I love the shares and all of those other things. I just find the fascination of hearing people speak for themselves and just asking them open questions. I was talking to Adam from harpoon today and they asked him some awful questions that he just laughed. He's like, well, that's a big question. I'm like, well, it's not meant to be intimidating. It's just trying to give you space in there to move around and be yourself. And so it's it's definitely the style of the owner. The owner is going to be somewhat different than what both of you are doing. But again, back to what rod and he said, I think absolutely we could have, if a guest want across all three, we could each have a very different and really interesting conversation. And we could use to bring over different skills and try to pull out their strengths and in a different way. And that reminds me of something. So in that instance Brett, through your effort to create these new shows Jesse's and mine, we can have a greater variety of conversations. We're reaching some folks who weren't put, you know, people weren't putting microphones in front of some of these employees, but I know that there's still more, you want to do to diversify the conversations around employer ownership. Thank you for that because it's very important and it's a conversation that we have had among the three of us. And as folks can imagine, we've had. A number of group conversations as this has come together. And I've certainly had a number of individual conversations or emails with both of you as well. And Romney. I love that. I think one of the earliest, if not the first group conversation that the three of us had, where one of your we've been calling them, the housekeeping issues was the diversity of voices on the podcast. So there were a couple of things that are very important to me. First of all, we are mindful and I'll just say expressly, we are very mindful that we are essentially three middle-aged white guys who are talking I'm going to cling onto middle-age for a few more years as I can. I might be stretching that a little bit for myself, but it is very important that we acknowledge that and take certain steps. So first of all, there is tremendous diversity already, as I've seen on Jesse's podcasts with his episodes vendors as well, by the way diversity in terms of gender and Rodney people of color as well. And we are mindful of that. And by the way, on these podcasts I'm mindful and there have been, I don't want to quantify the numbers, but there's a more of a presence of people of color. As you guys know that one of our uhh team members is the communications manager for the EO podcast network, Victoria Horta. She has been on the mini cast a couple of times now doing the company spotlight. And here's a frankly, a young lady who is very talented. She's at the start of her business career and the diversity of her voices, not just in frankly, not primarily as someone with the Latina heritage, but folks, the things I've learned working with a 20 year old, quite frankly, she and I, and I have an open mind of not bringing her into our space, but rather I'm trying to adopt that the young will be our buses is I think Jessie had one said Sunday. But we are very mindful of the voices and in our operations. And one of the things that is very premature yet, and we're months away from having announcements, but I've have a conversation with a woman who is an amazing storyteller and also a passionate employee owner. And I am unofficially calling her podcast number five. So when we have a second traunch of additional podcasts, because folks, I want anybody who can tell the story that I can't tell. To come on, find a way, reach out to me, find out a way to have a podcast. I sincerely believe that the number of podcasts on employee ownership is open-ended. And one of the things and forgive me, I know I'm just covering a lot of stuff here. When I started the soft podcast in 2017, I was the only one in the Aesop space at all. And it was actually a spoke of what that I was able to call it the Aesop podcast and you know, just take that territory. So to speak from a branding thing, other podcasts about Aesop's have come along. And certainly there are a lot of podcasts in the co-op space et cetera from a lot of different places. But in these SOPs space, others have come along and I've even talked about them on my podcast, because if you pick any professional sports team, there are probably 10 podcasts just on the quarterback. For example, if it's a football team, there are 30 just on the offensive line. And so I've been saying for a couple of years, you know, people will be like, Oh, congratulations. You thought of an ESOP podcast and I'm like, why didn't someone else like, to me, it's just so obvious. So with the EO podcast network, I'm actively looking to add, I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't a half dozen more a year from now in addition to the ones that were going. And the one thing, just from a housekeeping point of view and anybody who's considering it, the agreements that we have made, and technically we're still there is let's put together a six to 10 week commitment. Let's get in the groove, see how they're going and then move on from there. But candidly, you two are already you've discovered what I've discovered, which is every episode you do leads to three or four thoughts of other episodes. I've covered a lot of ground there, but that's why there are just so many stories to tell Rodney. And ultimately I know how to produce podcasts. I know how to distribute podcasts. I know how to drive conversations about employee ownership. And one of the things that I'm looking forward to with Jesse and Jesse's having conversations, no one else is having in that way. I sincerely believe, and Rodney will see this with you as well, but Jessie's is unique. I think a year and a half from now topics that Jessie's talking about. And how he's talking about them are going to be covered in the conferences. I think that conversation is going to be so important because they're actual owners talking about what's important to actual owners. So I'm thrilled to be working with both of you guys. Likewise, I'm going to, I have a, an ask and an offer of each of you before we wrap up. So reminder, this is the why worker co-ops podcast. We can assume the audience thinking more about worker cooperatives, what they might be, what that can mean. So in short, what would be a pitch that you would make to my audience, why they should listen to your show or show and I'll start with you, Jesse. Well, I appreciate that the opportunity to pitch, I think that the voice of ownership is I always thought of it before I started spending time with you in particular with Brett. I just never really thought beyond ESOP's. And so I think, I hope that folks that are excited about worker co-ops or participants can see this as a way to learn more. We don't get into a lot of tactical things, but get some insight and hopefully here. A similar voice of ownership that they feel on a co-op and maybe expand their networks. Any form of employee ownership makes the workplace better, makes the communities better, makes our country stronger. So I'm hoping that it's a fascinating foray into different voices and different connections. And there has to be, you know, we have a, co-op a very successful co-op that's a couple of them actually, but the one up in Hanover, New Hampshire, right on 11 and border, it's an amazing story. And I just never really thought about that. As an owner perspective, I had a very short lens. I have a lot of passion for the ESOP world and I go in there differently. And sometimes I've been buying things in there that I wouldn't usually buy in there. I might buy at a box store. And so it's, creeping into my behavior, the worker co-op conversations, it's showing up in results in how I'm spending my, income. So I'm hoping for your audience in the work co-ops they can have an appreciation that there might be several things in their house or their refrigerator or their cupboard or over their head that was made by a worker in the distant land of ESOP's and the more community we have the better. So I hope it's a lot of fun for them and then brings more curiosity and I hope. Having both of our shows on the yield podcast network, I'm hoping for the same from the ESOP to learn about the co-ops. Likewise, I'm really hoping that people who are already in or just excited about worker co-ops will some literally, like, it's almost like, on Christmas day, it's like, Hey, you didn't know it. This is a surprise that there's a gift out there. It says other form of employee ownership. In fact, that touches many more. There's like 10 million employee owners and Aesop's just in the U S right. So yeah I want people from the co-op world to be exposed, to and get excited by what's happening with Aesop's and your show is a good place for that. Meanwhile, Brett, with the EO podcast has a larger remit, like the whole world is his oyster. Brett, what would you, what kind of pitch would you make to my listeners? It's a great question, Rodney. And I appreciated and let me do what I do and just rephrase it a little bit in my answer. And I want to answer for why I hope everybody listening. To all of our podcasts and I'll even include other podcasts that are out there that we're not doing certified. EO is doing a podcast. Now we've talked about the Ohio state center is doing a podcast. There are other podcasts out there, and this is where my advocacy comes in. And it is, as you guys have learned, I take it very seriously, passionate advocate for employee ownership. We are doing better as a community in terms of working together, but not really well enough. The ESOP's for example, have pretty much all of the tax breaks, all of the access to capital, all of the professional advisors, significantly more professional advisors who are earning very good livings at this. There are high dollar value transactions. You don't, you just about cannot be a startup. That is an Aesop for a lot of reasons. I won't go into here. So a lot of the co-ops are small businesses just starting out. I believe very sincerely that what affects any aspect of employee ownership in the United States and around the world helps all of us. So in my perspective, I've done some podcasts focused on Canada. The Ava co-op uh, CFO was on. One of the co-founders of the Ava co-op was on John shell from social capital partners, a Canadian firm that helped arrange financing for teller guitars is on outside of the geographical United States. And by the way, ESOP's are an act of Congress limited to the United States, but it all helps grow all of us. So the reason that I hope the co-op audience will tune into my podcast is to hear generally what's going on in ESOPs and what is portable over to co-ops conversely, Rodney boy co-ops and there's less than 10% number of co-ops and employee owners. And I will correct a number the ESOP employee owners that I in folks like me generally are concerned about. There's two to 3 million, we think a little closer to 3 million, 14 million. If you throw in all of the publicly traded really huge companies where it's just 1% of a technically they're employee owners, thanks for being part of our space, but we're we really are focused on the privately held companies. I'd love for the co-op folks to see what is going on in that ecosystem and how to apply it. And then finally, the beauty of it, Jesse, our focus with your podcast, just as an example, is owners talking to owners from a. Programming decision. We're not worried about total audience. We really want actual employee owners listening to your podcast. I think we're going to have a lot of professionals, certainly in the Aesop space. If they're as smart as I know they are going to listen because Jesse's conversations are going to drive that similarly, Rodney, I hope that anyone in the co op space is going to listen to Jessie's conversations because that's easily, as you've already noted in a lot of it that's easily portable to co-ops. So the reason why I hope everybody listens to all of us is we're all putting a giant jigsaw puzzle together. And all of us are working with kind of different pieces on our own. And this is also why I talk about every organization. And I am called Switzerland by a lot of folks. I support everybody who is in the space, mindfully, gratefully, and by decision because you know, we are all tied together. We are all in the Osan sandbox. So that's why I hope everybody listens. You'll get knowledge that is usable, portable, and helps elevate the general conversation that fantastic. So as a reminder today, we've had on Jesse Tyler from the. Hypertherm Aesop also host of the new owner to owner podcast, part of the EO podcast network, the man behind that Brett Kiesling producer of Jesse's show this show in his own two shows has also been our guest. And I hope people get more excited about these shared opportunities and values and shared efforts among both cooperators and people in the Aesop world. Thank you for joining us today. Thanks for having us, Rodney. It was great. Thanks, Rodney. Looking forward to our collaboration. We'd love to hear from you. You can find us on Facebook and Twitter at EO podcast network. This podcast has been produced by Brett Kiesling for the EO podcast network production assistance by Victoria Huerta, original music composed by max Kiesling branding and marketing by bitsy plus design and I'm Bitsy McCann.

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